Question:
How much pressure can a coupler handle?
?
2010-01-01 10:33:32 UTC
The Big boy Locomotive could pull a 5 mile train by itself, Ive heard that when they double headed two big boys they pulled a 7 mile train. How does a coupler hold up to that much pressure?
Ten answers:
Samurai Hoghead
2010-01-01 23:14:08 UTC
Gee, golly and gosh-a-roo, Nate. Just look what you‘ve done!



Many variables abound around the railroad, which is one of the things that make them so unique, and much has changed since I left it all behind nine years ago. But, as near as I can tell, physics, including gravity and the other forces of nature have remained the same everywhere on the planet (except Omaha) from that time until this. Here is what was at play at that time and how I was taught by some people who definitely knew their business.



There are many types of draft gear and they vary in tensile strength from type to type. High capacity draft gear is usually found on the cars of unit trains, grain and coal in particular. As long as I worked “standard” E-Type (which should be the benchmark, yes?) draft gear was understood to be rated at 240,000 lbs. This figure includes a 10,000 lbs margin for error above the 230,000 lbs. referenced above. If you have mixed freight, you better figure less than 240,000 lbs. if you want any kind of assurance to keep the train in one piece. (Handy Dandy Note #17: “F” type knuckles are rated nearly the same but will fit into a loco draw bar in a pinch).



But, even though that figure can vary between standard and higher capacity draft gear, the point is moot and the information is useless unless someone knows what to do with it. So the question becomes, “How do we know how much force will be exerted on the draft gear by the tonnage for the train we have and over the territory it will move?” Someone a lot smarter than you and me with a very sharp pencil came up with the “Rolling Train Resistance Formula” and the “Starting Train Resistance Formula.” The two are almost the same and quite simple to understand.



The rolling train resistance formula is: 20lbs for each ton in the train, multiplied by grade, plus 5 equals the draw bar force, or [(20 x T) x %G] + 5 = F. Starting force is the same except substitute “30” in the place of 20 lbs.



Ok. I have 6,000 tons I need to get up a 2.5% grade. 20 x 6000 = 120,000 x 2.5 = 300,000 + 5 = 300,005 lbs. Oops. We’re over the limit by 60,005 lbs (300,005 - 240,000 = 60,005). Now what?



You must reduce draft gear force. You do that by reducing tonnage (rarely ever happens) or add helper power, either manned or DPU, pushing some of that excess trailing tonnage, which reduces the draft forces on the head end. When speaking of a multiple unit helper with three units and up, and entrained (two units can usually go behind the last car but certain restrictions may prohibit this placement), they must be placed such that, of the tonnage they handle, 1/3 must be ahead of the helper with 2/3s trailing. If you do otherwise the helper can shove the cars ahead of it right off the track.



This helper placement creates the “node” which Andy properly mentioned. The node is that point in the train where there is neutral slack. That is, between the car which is last pulled by the road engine and the first car of the helper cut, where the slack is“floating,” if you will. The node will vary according to changes in speed or grade as well as slack adjustments and the finesse Andy refers to is definitely the order of the day, every day.



Now this is not a definitive answer since no one knows everything (don‘t ever bet your life on info from unofficial sources, such as Wikipedia and Yahoo!Answers), but it is the principle under which every engineer I’ve ever known or had the pleasure and good fortune to learn from has operated for at least the last 70 years or so, whom also happen to have been experts in grade territory railroading and the power requirements necessitated by the immutable laws of the physical universe to overcome those grades and, quite frankly, the ones that learned only two generations removed from first hand from those who wrote the book on grade operations and the demands such operation imparts to the draft gear. And the same people taught Andy as well, which is why most times our answers to questions are usually in agreement. I can say with pride that SP engineers were the best trained and other railroads availed themselves of the Simulator center that was then in Cerritos, Ca., when available for training their engineers as a part of the promotion process.



This isn't taking into account track / train dynamics ("L/V" ratio), either. Then it starts to get a bit more complicated, but the formula to determine horsepower needs is applied in conjunction with the rolling resistance formula when trying to determine power requirements for trains.



Using our same example, how much horsepower is needed to get that same tonnage up the same grade at, say, 16 mph? Here the formula is horsepower per ton (arrived at by dividing tonnage by horsepower), multiplied by 12, divided by the grade will equal speed, or HPT x 12 / %G = S. So, we need at least 21,000 horsepower. Why? 21,000 divided by 6000 is 3.5 HPT. 3.5 x 12 = 42 / 2.5 = 16.8 mph.



Now we know our power requirements and how it must be distributed so as to not produce more force than the draft gear can handle. We also know that capacity varies between types of couplers, which goes back to the heart of your question. I'll stand on 240,000 lbs. as standard. If I'm not mistaken, those 32.000 ton trains are dedicated iron ore hauling on track that is flat as a pancake and straight as an arrow for 1,000 miles across the barren Australian outback. Not my idea of "standard."



Some one was pulling your leg about five mile long trains and the Big Boys. But you can get back at 'em. Ask that person which was the most powerful locomotive built in America and he'll happily (and incorrectly) tell you it was the Alco Big Boy. Not true. They were a little over four feet longer in the engine with tender wheelbase, and 30 tons heavier, overall, but it is the Baldwin built 2-8-8-4s of the Duluth, Missabe and Iron Range, that hold the title for most powerful, and but for the two differences I cite above, they outclassed the Big Boys in all other categories, cylinder size, boiler size, grate area, etc.. Get him to bet on it if you possibly can, the more the wager the better.



And I'll certainly be the first to admit I could be wrong about any or all of the above, as my three remaining brain cells only hook up every so often these days.



Buuuuuut...









Wanna make a bet?
delmontez
2016-11-04 14:18:03 UTC
Train Coupler
2015-08-14 11:52:58 UTC
This Site Might Help You.



RE:

How much pressure can a coupler handle?

The Big boy Locomotive could pull a 5 mile train by itself, Ive heard that when they double headed two big boys they pulled a 7 mile train. How does a coupler hold up to that much pressure?
Ben B
2010-01-01 11:54:04 UTC
Couplers can hold lots of pressure. When you back the locomotive into one it clamps down and locks in. They have to pull against the whole train with the first notch so they do not jerk on them too hard. The average train is likely about 12,000 tons. So if you let slack in the train then pull hard it will snap a coupler like a match stick. Coupler's are solid steel and weight 75 or 100 pounds alone. Couplers are also attached to a draw-bar which I think helps a lot too. There are occasion where they just pop in mid stride on level ground.
Derail
2010-01-01 15:20:01 UTC
Andy is right - 230,000 pounds before the knuckle breaks. They are designed that way so that rail cars aren't pulled apart. But I did pull a car apart once three years ago. A rail car has a useful life of 40 years. After that they are supposed to be scrapped. There are variances which allow for 40 plus year old cars to remain in use under strict circumstances, including only staying on the property of the railroad that owns it. The car I pulled apart did so because of advanced rust and decay at the frame just behind the coupler pocket. The coupler assembly and the accompanying frame let go and brought with it angle iron frame for the hand brake (covered hopper), and the brakeman's platform with it. I don't know how old the car was, but it was over 40 years.
Andy
2010-01-01 12:43:01 UTC
A knuckle is supposed to be the weakest link in a coupler.It's supposed to be able to handle 230,000 pounds of force before it fails.Finesse on the engineers part is a major part of keeping a train in one piece.There is a lot of slack in a freight train and handling it gently is the key to not breaking in two.Slack has to be controlled or bad things happen!Starting a train(especially a very heavy one like a 20,000 ton coal train) is one of the times that call for a gentle hand on the throttle.A train has something called a node.When you apply power the force travels through the train like a wave.That wave is the node.You want that node to go all the way through the train before you add more power.Too much power too soon and you will break the train in two, usually in the head 10 cars.Another event that will break a train in two is engine wheel slip followed by the engines regaining traction suddenly.This is much rarer now with the newer engines and the computer controlled wheelslip systems.Much of how a train handles all those forces boils down to the quality of the engineer running the train.I talked to an engineer a while back that told me he had gotten 14 knuckles in 3 years.I was shocked! I thought i heard him wrong.He asked me how many i had got.When i told him 2 in my entire career he was shocked! Lol

Edit 68-76 you seem to have become quite the authority on train operations.Just how many years do you have on the job?Previously on a question relating to pushing and pulling freight trains you cited basically that we engineers didn't know what we were talking about and wanted sources for the info we gave.Well i can't answer for Rango and Samurai as they have more time on the job than i do(i only hired out in 1977)but my source of knowledge comes from watching 1.6 million miles of track pass beneath me in 33 years.So i ask again how many years have you been pulling a throttle?And by the way in the days of railroading Nate was refering to they didn't have those high strength couplers like they have now.The high strength couplers cited in the wickpedia source you listed are not used on all rail cars.They are generally only fitted to ore cars,coal cars,and covered hoppers used to haul grain.

I'm all for research and book learning! It's a fine thing that more people need to practice.However..when you start refuting answers from people that do this day in and day out for a living your risking sounding like a fool.I'm certainly not saying we are always right by a long shot.But we do know what we're talking about in most cases.And you can go ask any engineer or conductor and they will tell you that what you read in a book and what actually works in the real world pertaining to rail operations can be two completely different things.I applaud your quest for and your love of railroading.But until you've actually done it, please don't tell us we don't know what we're talking about.Rail technology changes every year and we have to change with it,but the basics of it remain as they have for many years.
2016-03-16 02:44:51 UTC
Is there anyway of trying to persuade you to not do it to this truck? With the amount of money and headache, what about just dropping in the newer 4.0L v6 vvt-i and then saving up to turbo charge that later? I know these are tough engines, but increasing the power on an already older 4-cyl is risky, and you could be looking into engine repairs down the road. Not only that, but you wouldn't be able to really put that much boost into it safely and expect it to last. Sell your engine and get two more cylinders. OR What about selling your first gen, and upgrading to an X-Runner? I just don't want you to be pissed when something finally gives in your engine after you turbo charge it, and your left with nothing. Just my $.02
68-76
2010-01-01 18:36:56 UTC
The data for the couplers ratings in the previous answers are not correct.



AAR (Association of American Railroads) coupler:

"Drawbar pull tractive effort rated with a minimum strength 350,000 pounds (160 t) for general service coupler made of Grade B steel. Grade E knuckles may have an ultimate strength of 650,000 pounds (290 t)."

"Maximum tonnage as high as 32,000 tonnes (71,000,000 lb) such as Fortescue Railway.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortescue_Metals_Group#Railway

That's 71 MILLION POUNDS.

A far cry from the previous answers data!



Go here for more specific detail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatchopper_coupling#Changes_since_1873

Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatchopper_coupling#AAR_coupler



Doing research to answer a question doesn't make one an expert or an authority. I like to back up what I say with reference.

Wikipedia sources of information are referenced by people who have data to submit on a particular subject, and as a general rule is pretty accurate, and no one here has any other data or reference to contradict it.

http://www.aarpublications.com/Publications/Manual%20of%20Standards%20and%20Recommended%20Practices.aspx

In this manual is found the data referred to. But I'm not going to buy it for $211.00!

http://www.transalert.com/pdf/FreightCars.pdf

This link has a manual 'freight Car Couplers & Draft Gears' for $321.75.

This link has an article titled: 'Slack is the enemy'.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1215/is_10_201/ai_66769274/

Some quotes:

1) "CUEMC is currently developing a new specification, M-921-F, for coil steel cars, bulkhead flat cars, and boxcars with a gross rail load of 263,000 pounds or higher."

That is 263,000 LBS. average OR HIGHER.

2) "M-901-E, for draft gears fitting in a standard 24 5/8-inch pocket, specifies 36,000 pounds capacity at 500,000 pounds of coupler force, and permits a total buff and draft travel of 6 1/2 inches."

What's that? 500,000 lbs. coupler force? How 'bout that.

3) "M-901-G calls for an impact velocity rating of not less than five mph at a coupler force of 500,000 pounds."

4) ..."a maximum capacity of 187,600 foot-pounds, and a maximum force of 892,000 pounds."

Maximum 892,000 lbs? That's right.



Now I hope this information is helpful.

And I will not talk about 'how long' I've done anything. I like to read and study. Railroading has been my favorite since a child, and not having operational experience doesn't make me unable to find things out.



Links are helpful for study & research.

Hope this helps you.
?
2010-01-01 10:41:15 UTC
Locomotive is not incidentally as big as it is full of beans
2010-01-01 23:49:15 UTC
Yeahh, what Andy said.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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